Discussion: What's the Fate of Pa.’s Voter ID Law?

Suzanne jefferis August 4, 2012 at 06:15 pm

The timing of this law reveals it for what it is, a republican legislator commented that it will give Pa to Romney; It's intent is to make it difficult to impossible for elderly and those who would find it difficult to get an updated voter ID. There has been no//zero cases of voter fraud in Pa.

Julia Zion August 4, 2012 at 06:51 pm

I agree, but we need more voter fraud protection in the registration and vote counting process. If they are residents within this country, they should have a say. Voting is not just a right of American Citizens. It's a right of resident aliens and even undocumented aliens...Did you know that undocumented aliens are taxed on their income and everything else they spend on in this country? The IRS is legally obligated not to give that info to the INS or homeland security for deportation purposes. Frankly, it's a double standard. Conservatives want to keep the Mexicans out of this country, yet have no problems taxing them like any citizen. So, if that's the case, why can't they vote for the politicians that write and vote on the policies that affect them every day? I, too, think that if you want to come into this country, you need to go through the proper channels. That being said, many have not. many didn't have the money to follow that process. Now, they have tax payer ID numbers and can work legally and pay taxes on their income. What's wrong with allowing them to vote as well?

Pat August 4, 2012 at 08:37 pm

I have no problem with asking for ID despite the fact that the Republicans have admitted they cannot cite any egregious instances of fraud. What I find reprehensible in this legislation is the effort to shove it through so close to a major election. The timing was purposeful and meant to disenfranchise folks who usually vote Democratic. It could turn around and bite Republicans in the nether regions, however, as the elderly could very well be left in the lurch, without ID, and they tend to vote and they vote Republican.

Mike Shortall August 5, 2012 at 01:40 am

Indiana's photo voter ID law was upheld by the US Supreme Court in 2008 by a margin of 6-3, which was more decisive than the Court's 5-4 ACA (Obamacare) decision! The majority said the photo requirement was not an unreasonable burden or obstacle to voting. This is why the opposition to the law in Pennsylvania did not seek relief in federal court. They knew they would lose!
No one should have any problem with any measure that makes the vote more secure, unless you have something to gain by having less control over who votes; which explains why you have opposition to the law from Democrats.

freeandequalpa August 5, 2012 at 02:13 am

The voters suing to challenge the law have IDs that they use to go about their daily lives -- just not one of the limited categories of IDs acceptable to vote under the new law. Look, for instance, at the testimony of the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit here (starting on page 97): http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/Transcript72512.pdf
This is not a small-scale problem. A scientific survey showed that more than 1 million voters in PA lack one of the acceptable forms of photo ID under the law (see the first report here): http://freeandequalpa.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/petitioners-expert-reports/

patrick August 5, 2012 at 02:27 am

Thanks Charles for proving Julia's point. There are no cases since 1987, that this has happened, but you do a good job of selling it.

Curmudgeon August 5, 2012 at 03:24 am

@Julie: Did you skip you high school government classes. ONLY CITIZENS can VOTE!! Not legal residents, or illegal residents, not unregistered voters, not dead voters, not allowed to vote twice (as in two residences in two states where they pay taxes. If one cannot make a commitment to become a citizen, then they do not want to assimilate into our culture. Diversity of culture is bringing this county down. In the past, immigrants by the second generation were speaking english and assimilate into our culture. Their heritage, proud as they were was secondary to THE AMERICAN DREAM. We have one of the most liberal immigration policy in the world, but we have rules. The illegal aliens and registered aliens can vote in theire country of origin, no whoops maybe they can't.

Mike Shortall August 5, 2012 at 04:08 am

Wow ... We've gone from 750,000 that was known to be way overstated, and now you're trying to sell it at 1 million?!?
And the "scientific study"??? It was a telephone survey!

freeandequalpa August 5, 2012 at 10:46 am

"A. My name is David Burgess.
Q. And you are currently the Deputy Secretary for Planning and Service Delivery at the Department of State; correct? A. Correct. . . . Q. Okay. I would like you to turn to the second page of this document. So at the top again we have the 758,939 voters that were publicly disclosed as not matching in the databases; correct? A. Correct. Q. And then below that is again the 130,189 that also did not match. Those are the ones that couldn't be found, couldn't be matched from the DOS databases and the PennDOT? A. Correct." Continued in next post . . .

freeandequalpa August 5, 2012 at 10:47 am

Continued from previous . . .
"Q. Now below that, isn't it true that your analysis revealed that 574,630 voters had a PennDOT ID, but that it expired October 1st, 2011 or earlier? A. That's correct. Q. And so those voters those 574,000 voters were not included in the number of voters that --- I'm sorry, they were included in the numbers that matched; is that right? A. Correct. Q. But according --- so according to your analysis 574,000 voters have an ID that wouldn't be valid for voting in November; is that right? A. They've a PennDOT ID that is expired. They would not be valid today unless it get updated or if they get a state ID which being in the system is very easy to do. But correct, today, it is not valid. Q. So they couldn't vote. They couldn't show that ID --- if they don't get that renewed they can't show that ID to vote in November? A. Correct, if they do not get it renewed. Q. So adding these three numbers together, the 758,000 that you publicly disclosed don't match, plus the 130,000 that did not actually match, plus the 574,000 whose ID is expired and won't be valid for voting today, adding all three of those together equals 1,463,758? A. That's correct." http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/Transcript73012.pdf

freeandequalpa August 5, 2012 at 10:51 am

@Mike: "And the "scientific study"??? It was a telephone survey!"
First, I said it was a survey in my original post. Second, please post a link to the opposing survey conducted by the Commonwealth showing the 1 million figure is not correct. Oh, wait . . .

SMYRNA-X August 5, 2012 at 11:41 am

Appalling, julie, is an article that only cites "lib" sources. There was no mention of an opposing view point. If an opposing view was scarcely mentioned it would be described as confused and disenfranchizing. Just because you agree with the editors point of view does not remove the importance of a balanced article. The simple fact is that the dem party has relied on the slow, lazy, excuse makers for years. If it really was the party of the working people I would gladly jum b p ship today, but thats not the case. I vote in every election, when I move I make sure everything is in order to vote, and vote for the guy who will do the least damage.

mfrancis August 5, 2012 at 01:35 pm

Taking peoples right to vote away, maybe second amendment "remedies" are need here.

Mari August 5, 2012 at 02:52 pm

If you don't have a regular drivers license with your picture on it, you can still get a license with your picture that doesn't allow you to drive. My neighbor has one!

Smedley August 5, 2012 at 03:15 pm

Well Smyrna, if you vote for the person that will do the least damage you play right into their game. The two parties won't let anyone else run. There isn't a dimes worth of difference between the two parties. The republicans do whatever they want, the democrats play along. That way nothing will change and they can go on raking in the money for the rich and big corporations on the backs of average americans.

Smedley August 5, 2012 at 04:03 pm

"Persuading the people to vote against their own best interests has always been the genius of the American political elite since the beginning." (Gore Vidal, pbuh)

Julia Zion August 5, 2012 at 04:06 pm

I apologize for not knowing that resident aliens could not vote. That being said, they should be able to. They pay taxes if they work legally, right? Why aren't they allowed to vote?
Also, the fact that IDs are available is not in question. I have one of the Non-Driver's IDs mentioned. That being said, it was very tough for me to go and get it. I had to wait until I actually had the money to take SEPTA to go and get it.I did not have the social support system I have now, so I had nobody to ask for a few bucks to get it. It's a ride of about 1 hr 45minutes from Pottstown with SEPTA including the transfer in Norristown. Then, I had to take a pretty dangerous walk from Swede Rd down a hill on the side of a driveway without much space to walk. The licensing center is not pedestrian friendly at all. Do you think any of these seniors who need their IDs will be able to walk that, let alone get down to the center? True, there is a licensing center in Pottstown, but it is really small and will only help you out if it's a renewal and you have your camera card. Requiring a senior to take this trip just to vote will make them think it's just not worth it anymore. Is that what you want to happen? Many people, including the poor, will not be able to make it there because they have no cash anymore since General Assistance was cut.

Julia Zion August 5, 2012 at 04:08 pm

Sorry to say, but the only thing this law will do is disenfranchise liberal voters lowering the voting rolls and give the election over to Romney and the GOP. This is a totally partisan attack on the mot likely to vote for Obama. Instead of promoting Romney on his record, the GOP has taken to eliminating the oppositions ability to easily vote.

Julia Zion August 5, 2012 at 04:09 pm

And Smyrna, how's voting for damage workin out for ya?

Mike Shortall August 5, 2012 at 06:16 pm

Actually, information in a Philly Inquirer story (http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-30/news/32942988_1_voter-id-laws-marion-county-election-board-voter-fraud) suggests older Republican voters living in the suburbs would be at least equally affected.
"The data reportedly show that 60 to 65 percent of eligible voters, and a similar share of people who actually voted in 2008, don't have the right ID because their driver's licenses have expired. This expired-license group skews elderly and does not skew African American. That suggests it may not be largely Democratic, since older voters are more likely to be Republican. Also noteworthy: While many of the voters without valid licenses live in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, plenty also live in the suburbs, where the GOP is strong. "It's possible, then, that if Pennsylvania's voter-ID law goes into effect, there will be a lot of angry, white, Republican, suburban voters turned away in November, along with black Democrats like Viviette Applewhite." So goes THAT argument.

Curmudgeon August 5, 2012 at 09:32 pm

Julia: They can't vote because they're not citizens. Please, take a civics course. We have a Constitution. Do you know what that is?? Read it. If you don't understand it, ask somewone who does. With all due respect, you come off as ignorant. (notice I did not say you were ignorant, although you could be).

SMYRNA-X August 6, 2012 at 12:36 am

Julie, smedly, dont hate the player hate the game. Smedly, you railed against the two party system. News flash- its what we got. You and I have to deal with. I m not for it but there is no effective way to change it or substition for it. The people of the us have to move to a new direction on thier own compulsion. I dont see that happening. The only course is to vote for the other guy.

freeandequalpa August 6, 2012 at 12:45 am

Resident aliens are permitted to obtain a driver's license (http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/licensing_master/identity.shtml) and many of the other forms of ID acceptable to vote under the law, so I fail to see how this issue has anything to do with the subject of the article -- the photo ID law. In others words, if the purpose of the photo ID law is to prevent resident aliens (who, indeed, are not entitled to vote) from voting, it will not accomplish that goal.

Julia Zion August 6, 2012 at 12:48 am

There is nothing in the constitution saying that citizens are the only ones allowed to vote. There are only amendments explaining the ways in which you cannot be prevented to vote, such as a poll tax (24th amendment) or on account of gender (19th amendment). Nowhere does it say that you must be a citizen to vote. As recently as 1926, resident aliens were allowed to vote in Arkansas, the last state out of 40 to finally drop allowing resident aliens the right to vote. So, barring state laws, you could have resident aliens, who already pay taxes to the IRS, voting in elections. I think it's wrong for the government to take taxes from someone but noot allow them a part in the political process.

Marc Lombardi August 6, 2012 at 02:17 am

I'm glad you're not using any slant in calling the dwi checkpointers anarchists. Oh, wait...nevermind...

Curmudgeon August 6, 2012 at 06:19 am

Julia: See Article IV Section 2. "The Citiizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. Amendment IV refers to rights of citizens. Amendment XIX refers to the rights of citizens to vote in regard to sex. The Constitution makes reference to citizens throughout, not non citizens.
But that aside, if paying taxes is your guideline for voting, 47% of Americans do not pay Federal Income taxes. Should they not be allowed to vote for Congress and the President? or do you have a rational for that. If I pay taxes in two states, should I be ablle to vote in those states. You see Julia, you have a set a guidelines you want, others have theirs. You refer to previous State laws that permitted resident aliens to vote, the also dissallowed women, had poll taxes for Blacks, reading tests etc. They could have been wrong and changed their laws to relect that.

Michael J. August 6, 2012 at 10:41 am

Curmudgeon, I like your point. If you don't pay taxes, you don't vote. Those that don't pay taxes are the ones being pandered to by the left. "If you don't vote for me, they will take away your government paid insurance, housing, food, whatever"

John Prutzman August 6, 2012 at 03:25 pm

SAD... BUT UNFORTUNATELY TRUE, 'THE GAME', OUR 2-PARTY SYSTEM, which is sometimes interfered by ‘an independent’ running! Very few of our politicians… PERHAPS THE ULTIMATE DOWN-FALL OF OUR COUNTRY… actually represent us, as obviously now being proven. We vote for them but they ultimately help the money contributors... millionaires and businesses... who paid for their promotions and advertising! As even attempted with getting the Supreme Court involved, this will not change. The only thing you can do is NEVER RE-ELECT A POLITICIAN... UNLESS YOU KNOW HE IS HELPING YOU AND NOT THE BIG MONEY!! Also, re-electing a President is not a good idea as he will be a 'lame duck'... nothing to loss and only more money to gain from favors to his contributors... UNLESS HE HAS PROVEN HIMSELF WITH POSITIVE RESULTS FOR 'WE THE PEOPLE'...!!

Smedley August 7, 2012 at 03:25 am

Smyrna your last post is pathetic. "its what we got. You and I have to deal with. there is no effective way to change it or substition for it."
I can just imagine you saying that to George Washington, Gandi, Nelson Mandela, or Martin Luther King. It's a two party system because the two parties are so greedy, so corrupt, so evil they even won't let anyone else run. They rant and rave about each other and make you believe you have the choice of freedom and democracy. The two parties are really one party with two heads. I don't buy it. I won't vote for them. One thing is for sure. They won't control everything forever. Come over from the dark side and vote for a real person. Not a corporation disguised as a human being.

JohnHerald August 7, 2012 at 04:30 am

Matter of fact, Pennsylvania's voter ID law is considered one of the strictest in the nation. Matter of fact, it's not great journalism to characterize issues by terms that could be considered flattering or unflattering, particularly if you are seeking comments.